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today on the show investigative

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journalist george knapp and biochemist

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column callaha authors of skinwalkers at

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[Music]

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this is somewhere in the skies with ryan

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sprague

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guys thank you so much for joining me

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today on somewhere in the skies and i

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can't believe it's taken me this long

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but it's finally happening we have the

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authors of skinwalkers at the pentagon

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authors we have george knapp and colm

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kelleher joining us today now i know a

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lot of you guys know hunt for the

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skinwalker this is the follow-up book it

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goes into way more in depth about what

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colm experienced on the ranch what

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others experienced as well and um

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everything that's going on in the ufo

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discourse right now with the secret

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pentagon

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ufo program and and everything between

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and how skinwalker ranch is connected to

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all of this so i'm so excited to finally

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have them with us they've done a bunch

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of interviews on this before so we're

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going to try to cover new ground tonight

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and ask um a lot of the questions that

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are coming now where does skinwalker

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ranch lay in this greater conversation

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on the uap topic so

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again for the very first time thank you

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colm and thank you george for joining me

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on somewhere in the skies great to see

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you ryan great to be here

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i really appreciate you taking the time

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to do this i know you guys have done a

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lot of interviews so um let's kind of

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just jump into it i want to ask you know

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you guys both co-authored the original

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book hunt for the skinwalker and now we

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have the follow-up with a third author

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so i was wondering for some of our

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listeners and viewers who may not be

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feeling familiar with who that is could

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you tell us a little about who james

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lakatsky is and what was the impetus for

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him to finally come forward with his

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connection to all of this whoever wants

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to take that

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jim lickowski is a

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long time defense

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intelligence agency analyst

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he's also

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got a doctorate in engineering he's a

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ballistic missiles

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uh

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expert he he used to be a contractor

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with the missile defense agency before

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he moved to uh defense intelligence

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agency so this guy is the original

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rocket scientist if you want to use that

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term um but he's also got a very open

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mind i mean he's not sort of the usual

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sort of scientific

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person that likes to have uh you know

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tunnel vision and doesn't sort of stray

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outside his boundaries

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so

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um you mentioned earlier that george and

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i had published this book

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called hunt for the skinwalker way way

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back in 2005.

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well it it turns out that in early 2007

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likkatsky

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came across this book

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in conjunction with other meetings that

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were happening at defense intelligence

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agency so he read the book um another

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guy in our

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on our present book called axelrod we

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named him axelrod

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um because of uh you know for several

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reasons but um axelrod also read the

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spoken for the skinwalker

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and you know it did occur to lakotsky

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and a few of the colleagues including

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axelrod that

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um the um descriptions in hunt for the

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skinwalker of these objects that were

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flying around utah airspace in

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northeastern utah that seem to be

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able to come and go at will they seem to

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be able to defy

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um you know normal physics

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um and nobody seemed to either

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know about them or was concerned about

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them so like started looking into the

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possibility of seeing what kind of

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technology might be behind these objects

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and secondly whether or not that

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technology had anything to do

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with uh united states national security

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because the guy was part of the defense

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intelligence agency and also part of the

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defense warning office at dia

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so long story short he wrote a he wrote

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a

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uh to visit the uh

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the so-called skinwalker wrench that was

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the basis of our book hunt for the

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skinwalker so in july of 2007 uh

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lukatsky and bigelow flew in bigelow's

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private jet up from las vegas up to

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uh landed in vernal utah which is about

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30 miles from the ranch drove to the

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ranch lecatsky was on the property maybe

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a couple of hours

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but dur during that time um bigelow went

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in to chat with the branch managers in

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what used to be called homestead one

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which is the uh one of the homesteads

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that is nearest the entrance to

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skidmarker ranch

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and lakotsky sort of joined the group

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he was looking standing in the kitchen

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when behind bigelow and the ranch

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manager this

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technological device

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uh materialized out of nowhere behind

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bigelow behind the ranch manager neither

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of them saw it

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um this device was like a curved

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metallic looking object and like later

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likoski described it as being similar to

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um the cover album of mike olfield's

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tubular bells

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so uh lakoski was didn't say anything at

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the time but he was watching this he

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looked away he thought he was saying

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things look back the object was still

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there and it was sort of

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embedded in a sort of a yellowish cloudy

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sort of uh vapor

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um and again he was the only one who saw

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it the catski didn't say anything uh the

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object then sort of uh

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dematerialized in lukowski's

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words

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um so he never said anything to bigelow

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uh until later

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and um but that was the sort of

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instigation

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of a drive that that set up between

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lukatsky bigelow senator harry reid that

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resulted in the formation

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of a new uh contract

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uh that was run through the defense

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intelligence agency for 22 million

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dollars 24-month contract the initial

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contract actually was supposed to be

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five years but the

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end result was a contract that was run

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through the dia

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for 24 months and then a three month no

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cost extension so the total contract

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that was run through the defense

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intelligence agency was 27 months

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so you know in a way you know george and

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i could could sort of say that the book

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hunt for the skinwalker

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was one of the early instigators for

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what eventually became the program once

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robert bigelow jim lakotsky and senator

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harry reid and senator stevens and

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senator inouye got involved

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in a bipartisan uh funding process that

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funneled 22 million dollars through the

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defense intelligence agency and ended up

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with what became known as the assad

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program

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i'll add to you about jim lokatsky so um

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you know i i don't have a security

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clearance i wasn't part of asap but i've

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had developed a good friendship with

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robert bigelow and with column with

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other people that they work with from

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the nids organization and i had also had

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this ongoing 30-year conversation with

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harry reid about ufos and a lot of these

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disparate threads all sort of came

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together at the same time

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to create awesome so

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in 1989 i had started a conversation

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with reid about ufos about bob lazar

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area 51

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uh recovered disc crash retrieval

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programs being tested in the in the

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desert and whether you believe any of

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that stuff is true or not

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it was of interest to read and i he was

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the first person i told about it

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outside of our newsroom and we started

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the dialogue about ufos he said keep me

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informed keep me in the loop and he

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helped me behind the scenes acquire

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things that i couldn't acquire on my own

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in 1995 when 1996 when bigelow created

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nids the national institute for

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discovery science with all these amazing

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people edgar mitchell jacques valet hal

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put off all those folks hired

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colin kelleher eric davis and a few

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other really amazing professionals

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they had me speak at their first full

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science advisory board meeting and

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afterward i told reed about i said this

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amazing group of people including one of

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the guys two men who would walk on the

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moon and one who's a u.s scientist a u.s

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uh senator at the time and so i told

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reid about it he said

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yeah you think i could get invited to it

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and he did he went to a meeting he got

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hooked on the subject even more than he

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was from my conversations with him and

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that laid the seeds or laid the

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groundwork for what later became the

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asset program just all those connections

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because some years later

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when lakatsky goes to the ranch has this

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experience meets with bigelow goes back

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to washington creates the outline for a

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program presents it to read reid was

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already on the hook he was already ready

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to go and then

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september of 2008 bigelow signs a

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contract with the defense intelligence

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agency creates asap and bass a week

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later he goes on coast to coast with me

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and announced it to the world told the

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world he had a an unnamed partner

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they're going to study ufos

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but nobody paid attention to it you know

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there was the breadcrumbs there for

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anybody to to to be aware of what was

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going on but no one paid attention to it

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and it just faded away that was the

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beginning of asap and although i had

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heard lakatsky's name only in fleeting

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references here and there

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in march of 2018

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this is four months after the new york

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times story comes out i get invited to

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dc invited by

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by uh senator reed to meet somebody and

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it's on st patrick's day and the person

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i end up meeting and i know who is going

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to be is jim lukowski and he

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laid it out for me and i knew there had

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been a program but i had never heard

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that the acronym asap

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i never heard atip either until i saw it

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in the new york times and we reported on

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it and bigelow's quoted and reads quoted

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in those stories but so many of the key

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uh elements of what was reported was

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wrong they were wrong and the catski and

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reed laid it out for me on what was

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wrong and it was quite a bit it was

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quite an education and after that

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in the spring of 2018 i started making

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public presentations about it likkatsky

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shared a great deal of information with

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me things that column had known all

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along

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and you know my eyes were opened to what

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00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:11,920
had really been going on and so i

279
00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:13,920
started speaking about it even though

280
00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:15,680
the caskey did not want to go forward at

281
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:17,600
that point column and i started a

282
00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:20,880
dialogue with him and and he i think

283
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:23,120
to a degree he was frustrated by how

284
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:24,800
much of the information

285
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:26,640
that was out of the public

286
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:28,959
arena was was inaccurate about what it

287
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:31,279
what had happened who had done what so

288
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:32,720
that's part of what we tried to do with

289
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:34,640
the book is to set the record straight

290
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:37,680
about what the program was what it what

291
00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:40,079
it encompassed how big it was and it was

292
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:41,440
an amazing thing and if it had been

293
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:43,519
allowed to continue we might have some

294
00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:46,079
really solid answers by now

295
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,760
and i'm glad you bring up two things

296
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:49,200
george and i'm really glad you brought

297
00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:50,639
them up the the

298
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:53,440
um the difference between atip and ossap

299
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,160
and also um you know the original

300
00:12:01,430 --> 00:11:58,800
reporting on all of this

301
00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:01,440
why do you think either of you please be

302
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:04,480
feel free to step in why was there so

303
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:07,279
much confusion and why did the new york

304
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,959
times um you know not to say anything

305
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:13,200
about the authors of the articles they

306
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:14,880
worked with what they were given what

307
00:12:18,310 --> 00:12:17,040
the new york times allowed them to put

308
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:18,320
in there but

309
00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:21,440
why was this so inaccurate from the very

310
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:24,320
beginning um you know again i'm so happy

311
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:25,440
you guys

312
00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:28,160
clarified so much of the this for us the

313
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,360
public um on what ossep was what atip

314
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:33,600
was what eventually a tip became and

315
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:35,200
where that money actually went to

316
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,200
because that is you know the biggest

317
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:39,600
question so many people have out there

318
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:41,279
was this money actually used to

319
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:44,160
investigate ufos or was it also the

320
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,000
paranormal so what do you guys think why

321
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:48,240
was the new york times so wrong or were

322
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,000
they told something

323
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:52,880
different what do you think well i think

324
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:55,600
uh part of it was uh you know for like

325
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:58,000
for example lou elizonda where you know

326
00:13:03,350 --> 00:12:59,920
the the book that we wrote people have

327
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:03,360
wanted to to characterize it as anti-lou

328
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:06,399
or attacking lu or attacking atip which

329
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,320
it is not you know it's never been that

330
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:10,000
those are two different entities

331
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:12,000
entirely i think lou in the beginning

332
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:13,760
could speak about atep because that was

333
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,760
the program he was involved with and he

334
00:13:19,829 --> 00:13:17,440
didn't feel like he was authorized to go

335
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,839
ahead and speak about asap so he phrased

336
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:22,240
things in in that way i think there were

337
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,920
other people who were whispering in the

338
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:25,839
ear of the new york times at that point

339
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,760
who knew the difference and who muddied

340
00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:30,079
those waters on purpose that i think

341
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,079
they felt if we tell the real story

342
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,480
about assad and all the weird stuff that

343
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:36,720
got into it won't be credible because

344
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,199
you know ufos that's credible but when

345
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:41,279
you get into weirdo creature cryptid

346
00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:43,920
creatures and things like that and and

347
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,000
hitchhikers that's too strange let's

348
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:48,399
just keep it simple at this well you

349
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:51,040
know that's fine um if you want to get a

350
00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:52,959
story past the editors of new york times

351
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:54,880
i can understand that but it's not

352
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:57,279
honest uh it wasn't accurate it was way

353
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:00,160
off the base and and those mistakes that

354
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,120
were made then are repeated every week

355
00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:05,040
all over the world by journalists who

356
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,880
should know better you know especially

357
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:08,639
now that the record has been cleared

358
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:10,720
anybody can read this see it for

359
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,639
themselves there was an a tip that's for

360
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,480
sure but there was an ass app that was a

361
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,199
much bigger program it's a program that

362
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:19,360
got the 22 million dollars it might be

363
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,079
the largest government-funded ufo

364
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:24,320
related program in u.s history they had

365
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:26,880
50 full-time employees at one point atep

366
00:14:32,470 --> 00:14:29,680
had none they had a scope that didn't

367
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:32,480
involve just military ufo cases it was

368
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,040
ufo cases all over the country in fact

369
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:37,120
all over the world the database which

370
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:38,800
we'll talk about later

371
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,959
involved information from multiple

372
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,560
different countries all over the world

373
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,639
and then not only was it big in terms of

374
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:47,120
number of employees and its scope it

375
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,600
also looked at things beyond ufos it

376
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:51,600
followed the evidence where it led

377
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:53,760
and often it led to some very strange

378
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:55,760
places and we can get into those details

379
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,519
i don't know why the new york times has

380
00:15:01,509 --> 00:14:59,600
never corrected that the mistakes that

381
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,519
it made in the very first couple of

382
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,760
lines of that story but they haven't

383
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:05,440
you know and they've those mistakes have

384
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:08,720
been repeated as recently as a week ago

385
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:12,079
the the new york times article um has

386
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:14,560
never been corrected and that's that's

387
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,600
kind of uh really interesting because

388
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:19,440
the main reason that we wrote the book

389
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,199
was to correct the record the new york

390
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:22,800
times article

391
00:15:28,550 --> 00:15:26,160
made what three fundamental

392
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:28,560
uh errors in the first six lines of the

393
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:31,519
of the story you know it linked the 22

394
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:34,560
million dollars to atip wrong

395
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:36,720
it linked lou elizondo was the head of

396
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:38,240
the 22 million

397
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:41,680
dollar program wrong and then it located

398
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:44,639
the uh the program in the uh

399
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:47,920
at usdi and in the pentagon wrong it was

400
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:50,480
actually a defense warning office at

401
00:15:56,910 --> 00:15:53,680
dia so um the the

402
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,920
original new york times article uh

403
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:59,199
unfortunately i think as george said

404
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:01,759
there were people whispering in the ear

405
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,240
of the new york times um

406
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:06,079
uh reporters

407
00:16:09,189 --> 00:16:07,040
and

408
00:16:10,430 --> 00:16:09,199
the result was that there was a series

409
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:10,440
of

410
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:13,040
mischaracterizations and inaccuracies

411
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:15,519
that took on a life of their own and

412
00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:18,560
then sort of month by month year by year

413
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:21,839
um it they amplified into what now is

414
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:24,880
the received wisdom is that the 22

415
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:27,360
million dollar program was a tip it was

416
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:31,440
led by you lou elizondo and etc etc

417
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:33,519
where whereas that was not the case and

418
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:36,480
the reason that likatsky and myself and

419
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:39,680
george decided to write this book was

420
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:42,240
partly to correct the record now this is

421
00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,120
not to denigrate in any way what the the

422
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:47,680
sterling work that people like louis

423
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:49,759
elizondo and chris mellon have done it

424
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:53,360
since the 2017 article in getting this

425
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:55,600
topic before the senate armed services

426
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,600
committee and the senate intel the

427
00:17:03,590 --> 00:16:59,759
various senate intelligence committees

428
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:03,600
and and making the ufo topic uh real but

429
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:06,720
the fact is the reporting was erroneous

430
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:08,959
and our book uh skin markers of the

431
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:11,919
pentagon definitively in our opinion

432
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:14,400
corrects the record on that

433
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:16,160
col i want to touch on a few of the

434
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,120
weirder aspects to skinwalker ranch with

435
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:21,679
you guys um in terms of what's happening

436
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:23,039
now in the book one of the most

437
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:25,280
disturbing things that i remember

438
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,400
reading were this i was this idea of an

439
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:31,440
infectious agent or even one of the

440
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:32,640
witnesses

441
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:35,440
claiming that they had an autoimmune

442
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,160
uh

443
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:38,799
system disease occur after witnessing

444
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:41,280
some of this phenomena um

445
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:42,880
have you caught up with these

446
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,440
individuals is this still an ongoing

447
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,520
thing with these people who have claimed

448
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,160
these things and uh what do you think

449
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,880
what what can we do i mean in terms of

450
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,400
if this phenomena is actually what

451
00:17:58,470 --> 00:17:56,400
caused this in these people is that

452
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:58,480
something that should be further studied

453
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:00,799
on skinwalker ranch today with the new

454
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:03,440
owners what what do you guys think well

455
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:06,080
i can say straight off that this was not

456
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:09,360
a skin walker only this was not confined

457
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:12,720
to skin marker ranch only because

458
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:15,919
we investigated other cases as george

459
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:18,880
mentioned the assap program investigated

460
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:21,679
cases all over the country we deployed

461
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:24,000
people to montana we deployed people to

462
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:27,520
california we deployed teams to texas to

463
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:30,480
new york state uh following up on cases

464
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:33,520
documenting on cases actual field

465
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:36,480
research i mean we we did have 50

466
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:39,120
full-time people who are working 40

467
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:40,400
hours a week

468
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:44,400
200 2080 hours a year on this ufo

469
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:46,000
problem we even deployed people to

470
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:47,039
brazil

471
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:51,760
um in in in response to uh ufo cases so

472
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,360
um this

473
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:55,200
the so-called hitchhiker effect that

474
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:57,120
you're referring to

475
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:00,559
also is associated with cases we

476
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:03,440
documented this effect in people who had

477
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:07,039
close encounters with ufos who had who

478
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:08,720
had not been anywhere close to

479
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:12,080
skinwalker ranch um so this is this goes

480
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,480
beyond skin worker ranch and it is

481
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,200
actually documented in in other ufo

482
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:19,440
cases but to get to the heart of your

483
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:20,480
question

484
00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:21,840
um

485
00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:25,360
as we began to follow people who had had

486
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:27,919
anomalies in their you know their

487
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,080
immediate sort of framework on

488
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:33,039
skinwalker ranch um a lot of the the

489
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,120
people initially that the defense

490
00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:37,360
intelligence agency deployed on the

491
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:40,080
property were from military intelligence

492
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,360
they had

493
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:43,840
they were from armed services and they

494
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:46,000
were deployed on the property in order

495
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,280
to corroborate and to evaluate these

496
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:51,600
stories that have come out primarily

497
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:53,919
from hunt for the skinwalker but also

498
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:56,480
other stories that were involved with

499
00:20:01,510 --> 00:19:59,039
with skinwalker ranch and they involved

500
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:01,520
not only nuts and bolts ufos but they

501
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,120
also involved discarnate entities

502
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:07,600
alleged poltergeist activity

503
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:10,960
uh cattle mutilations uh reports of

504
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:12,880
unusual creatures were seen on the

505
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:15,520
property and a whole host of other

506
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:16,799
quote-unquote

507
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:19,600
paranormal effects so when these five

508
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:22,400
people from military intelligence over

509
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:24,080
different time periods were deployed on

510
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,640
the property all five of them actually

511
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:29,200
encountered unusual activity on the

512
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:32,400
property and then what what really got

513
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:35,440
people's attention was uh when they went

514
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:36,240
back

515
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:39,760
to the east coast where they they lived

516
00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:42,080
their families within a few weeks of

517
00:20:48,149 --> 00:20:45,520
them returning began to experience uh

518
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:48,159
waking up at night with these black

519
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:51,200
humanoid creatures standing over them in

520
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:54,000
beds in their bedrooms

521
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:56,799
blue orbs red orbs white orbs yellow

522
00:21:03,270 --> 00:20:59,760
orbs flying through their houses

523
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:03,280
some of them reported bizarre looking

524
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:06,240
almost like mythical creatures that were

525
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:12,390
at different times

526
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,320
they would experience

527
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:17,039
poltergeist activity things would would

528
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:19,760
uh wine bottles would shoot off the uh

529
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:21,760
the wine rack and sort of smash against

530
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:24,720
the wall um poltergeist activity would

531
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,520
erupt in their homes so um in all of

532
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:28,960
these cases

533
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:31,919
um we documented that um

534
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:34,960
what seemed to be a primary case

535
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:36,880
where where anomalies were experienced

536
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:39,360
on skinwalker ranch then two and a half

537
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,080
thousand miles away on the east coast

538
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:44,480
suddenly these uh this activity would

539
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:47,039
start start appearing in people's homes

540
00:21:51,190 --> 00:21:48,799
and not only that there were some of the

541
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:51,200
the kids who had experienced that

542
00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:52,320
activity

543
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:54,480
uh wanted to keep silent about it didn't

544
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,799
want to talk about it at all but then

545
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,400
their school friends

546
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:00,480
and neighbors started telling them that

547
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,039
they had seen weird stuff like creatures

548
00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:05,760
outside their bedrooms uh black shadowy

549
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:08,640
creatures in their in their rooms um you

550
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,600
know uh orbs flying around so not only

551
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,760
the families that the primary

552
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:15,200
investigators

553
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:16,240
um

554
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,000
were experiencing that but also

555
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,400
neighbors and school friends in the in

556
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:22,720
the local kids school so i mean my

557
00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:25,280
background is virology and biochemistry

558
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:27,360
so the first thing that occurred to me

559
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:30,000
was that this whatever this effect was

560
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:32,720
was behaving like an infection an

561
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:36,240
infectious agent so the primary infected

562
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:39,440
person that you know that the index case

563
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,320
to use the terminology would be infected

564
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,720
on skin worker ranch

565
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:46,559
then it would be brought back to the

566
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,440
families the families that the you know

567
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,000
spouse and children would be then

568
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:53,600
infected

569
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:54,480
then

570
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,720
neighbors and school kids would also be

571
00:23:02,149 --> 00:22:59,039
infected so one of the things that we

572
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:02,159
reported on in the in our book uh was

573
00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:05,200
was the hypothesis that this could be

574
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:08,400
an infectious like agent and that the

575
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:10,880
so-called hitchhiker effect could be

576
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,240
amenable to standard epidemiological

577
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,960
modeling everybody now is familiar with

578
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:18,960
the coronavirus epidemic for the last

579
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,000
two years

580
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:22,720
of standard epidemiological modeling

581
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:25,840
that people do with viral infections so

582
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:29,360
um i would hope in a future ufo program

583
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:32,159
that would in involves studying

584
00:23:38,549 --> 00:23:35,600
you know the effects of of ufos on

585
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:38,559
humans that this kind of thing would be

586
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:41,440
part of a future ufo program

587
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:45,679
i would very strongly advocate that

588
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:49,520
studying ufo performance and studying

589
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,080
ufos with sensors and with with with uh

590
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,000
you know with with all of the sensor

591
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,240
activity that that we deployed on

592
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:00,480
skinwalker ranch and elsewhere is

593
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:03,360
absolutely important but at the same

594
00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:05,919
time studying the effects of ufos on

595
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:08,559
people and studying these effects that

596
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,400
that include um you know medical effects

597
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,720
autoimmune diseases would erupt in some

598
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:16,480
of these people

599
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:19,520
psychological effects and then you know

600
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:21,679
sometimes these paranormal effects would

601
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:24,080
erupt in people um

602
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:27,279
all of that study is following the data

603
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:30,640
we you know also the osap program did

604
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:33,440
not start off to study things that go

605
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:35,440
bump in the night we started off to

606
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:39,760
study ufos and one of our first uh cases

607
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:42,320
that we studied was the famous tic tac

608
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,799
case that occurred in the nimitz carrier

609
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:46,720
strike group off the cape off the coast

610
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,159
of san diego so that was a hard sort of

611
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:52,960
case with multiple sensors involved

612
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:56,080
tracking objects that appeared to defy

613
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:00,080
the normal physics but at the same time

614
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:03,440
these close encounter cases that happen

615
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:04,880
to people

616
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,159
also have effects on people that include

617
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:10,240
medical effects they include

618
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:12,720
physiological effects psychological

619
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,440
effects and eventually if you study

620
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:17,840
people over months and years they can

621
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:20,960
start reporting paranormal effects as a

622
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:23,600
result of ufos so that's the sort of

623
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:25,919
essence of the so-called hitchhiker

624
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:29,120
effect that we reported on i i would add

625
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:31,279
ryan that uh you know that of the five

626
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,120
intelligence agents who went to the

627
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:35,840
ranch during the asap study all five of

628
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:38,000
them took something home and for some of

629
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:39,919
them it lasted for years it stuck with

630
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:42,240
them and for one that we know of it's

631
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:44,720
still happening we're talking 12 13

632
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,720
years after it first first occurred the

633
00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:48,559
first experience the hitchhiker

634
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:50,799
phenomenon didn't start on the ranch but

635
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:53,279
it was a unique opportunity to study it

636
00:25:57,990 --> 00:25:55,039
there i mean it's been reported all over

637
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:58,000
the world in association with ufo events

638
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:00,480
in fact i wouldn't be surprised if some

639
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:03,360
people who were exposed to the tic tac

640
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,440
had similar effects that have not been

641
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,159
publicized yet you know if you

642
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:10,320
use the term poltergeist and people in

643
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:12,400
the ufo field kind of titter about it

644
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:15,440
and want to diminish or dismiss this

645
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:17,039
because what although look that's a

646
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:19,520
goofy study they're looking at ghosts

647
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:21,360
well it's not ghosts we don't know what

648
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:23,360
the hell it is nobody does it just we

649
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:25,600
notice that that phenomena happens

650
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,760
in connection with ufo experiences

651
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:29,279
they're in connection with each other

652
00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:31,279
happen in the same place and it seems to

653
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:32,960
have long-term effects and stick with

654
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:35,200
people don't know what it is don't say

655
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,880
it's ghosts we just compare it to

656
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,880
paranormal and and poltergeist stuff

657
00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:40,480
because that's what's been investigated

658
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:42,320
and described before in the literature

659
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,000
interesting right yeah this whole

660
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:46,240
hitchhiker effect thing is what i think

661
00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:48,000
a lot of people are really finding

662
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:50,480
intriguing and also i know george you

663
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,760
even mentioned people reading the book

664
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:55,279
are experiencing the hitchhiker

665
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,039
phenomenon if you want to believe that

666
00:27:01,990 --> 00:26:59,760
or not but hey who knows how far this

667
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:02,000
could actually go in terms of well

668
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:04,400
we wish we know that because

669
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:05,760
we wish we had made that up as a

670
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,760
marketing device but we didn't you know

671
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:09,279
we did get some reports from that we

672
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:11,679
have no idea how much yeah how seriously

673
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:12,799
it takes

674
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:15,360
it's interesting um well george in terms

675
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:17,840
of um seriousness

676
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,000
there um a lot of people have pointed

677
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:22,559
out the stories that were in the book um

678
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:23,760
you know we have the poltergeist

679
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:27,279
activity cattle mutilations uap um

680
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,159
portals even all of this stuff but i

681
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:32,559
distinctly remember you tweeting out one

682
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:34,799
day about the book of

683
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:37,200
look at this page check out this page

684
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:39,760
read between the lines i want to know

685
00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:42,080
if you're willing to share what are some

686
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:43,520
of those gems

687
00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:45,760
that people have not picked out yet have

688
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,000
not asked you guys about is there

689
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:50,080
anything in terms of that that you can

690
00:27:54,710 --> 00:27:53,840
uh share with us page 152

691
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:54,720
um

692
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:57,679
it has some pretty heavy hints about

693
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:59,200
crash retrievals

694
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:01,279
column and his colleagues

695
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:03,279
were hot on the trail of what they

696
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:05,760
believed was a crash retrieval program

697
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,679
they they thought that they would have

698
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:09,600
access to it eventually that they'd been

699
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,960
led in the door

700
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:13,440
and they had prepared bigelow aerospace

701
00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:16,559
the facilities there to receive exotic

702
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,760
materials

703
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:19,440
i don't believe that happened a column

704
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:21,279
can get into that but they were prepared

705
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:23,120
to receive those materials

706
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:24,960
and they were trying to figure out who

707
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:27,360
were the keepers of the secrets and page

708
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:28,720
152

709
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:30,399
details some of the efforts that were

710
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,320
made the people who were meeting with

711
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:34,240
higher-ups at department of homeland

712
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,480
security and some other places inside at

713
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:37,679
the pentagon

714
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:38,960
um and they were trying to get the

715
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,279
answers to it and knocking on the door

716
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:43,120
to find out who's got the goodies where

717
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,360
is this stuff stashed and the door was

718
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,360
not just closed it was slammed in their

719
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:49,600
faces so maybe column could elaborate on

720
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:50,799
that

721
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:55,039
we

722
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,480
obviously

723
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,880
uh everything that we wrote in the book

724
00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:00,480
uh we put

725
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:03,919
pentagon

726
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:06,960
um an organization called dobser that is

727
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:08,720
involved in vetting

728
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:11,200
all of the uh of what is written in a

729
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:14,000
book that has security implications

730
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:17,279
so we had we had our book reviewed over

731
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:18,960
a 10-month period

732
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:21,919
by four separate organizations

733
00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:24,880
and and you know so so whatever is in

734
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:28,399
the book and george mentioned page 152

735
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:30,159
was actually read

736
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:31,200
vetted

737
00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:32,240
and

738
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:34,640
authorized for release so we're not

739
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:37,520
saying anything out of school that the

740
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:40,240
uh that the reviewers in multiple

741
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:43,279
different agencies didn't want to be put

742
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:45,279
out there as a

743
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:47,600
um you know as a source of information

744
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:50,799
but as george mentioned uh one of the

745
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:53,520
organizations that we were interacting

746
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:57,120
with uh after the asap program was

747
00:30:03,990 --> 00:30:00,880
terminated in late 2010 uh was the

748
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,000
department of homeland security and

749
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:06,799
several of the high-level people that we

750
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:09,840
talked with in the uh we do talk about

751
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:11,760
this in the book too but several of

752
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:14,799
those people began a series of their own

753
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:17,919
investigations and did bump up against

754
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:21,039
uh what you know the so-called uh

755
00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:23,440
keepers of the secrets

756
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:26,240
that is a deeply embedded series of

757
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,279
programs with extraordinary levels of

758
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:31,440
security in the united states government

759
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:34,080
that has been close hold for decades

760
00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:35,840
well they did bump up against that

761
00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:38,440
program and um they were told

762
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:40,000
unceremoniously

763
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:43,279
to um to get lost and it was not sort of

764
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:46,159
a polite uh we can't talk to you it was

765
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:49,760
a very hostile very rude in your face

766
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:50,799
sort of

767
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:53,520
this will not go any further cease and

768
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:56,559
desist immediately now part of this as

769
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:58,720
we mentioned in the book also

770
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:01,200
may have been a sort of a cultural

771
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:03,519
aspect where the department of homeland

772
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:06,559
security as you know was was initiated

773
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:08,000
following the

774
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:12,159
uh 911 uh bombings of the trade towers

775
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,919
so that you know the department of

776
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,080
homeland security was a relatively new

777
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:18,240
kid on the block and sort of other

778
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:21,679
intelligence agencies like cia and dia

779
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:22,399
and

780
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:25,279
you know the 17 intelligence agencies

781
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:28,000
that exist and and are responsible

782
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:31,120
collectively for united states security

783
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:33,760
um the department of homeland security

784
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:36,000
was considered a new kid on the block

785
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:38,960
and so here were these people from dhs

786
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:40,960
even though they were all very high

787
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:43,840
level people at dhs were sort of

788
00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:45,919
knocking on doors that

789
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,080
the old-timers thought was completely

790
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:50,880
inappropriate and certainly they would

791
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:53,360
not be let in the gatekeepers of these

792
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:56,880
programs that are sort of long long term

793
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,640
over many decades in the united states

794
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:01,120
government simply refused in a very

795
00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:05,360
hostile way to grant any access to uh to

796
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:07,840
these people but the bottom line was

797
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:10,320
after those experiences the people who

798
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:11,919
were directly involved doing the

799
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:14,399
knockings on the doors came away

800
00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:16,240
not believing that they were told to go

801
00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:18,240
away because there is no crash retrieval

802
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,799
program no goodies hidden they came to

803
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,279
believe without any question that there

804
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:25,519
is something out there that it is being

805
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:28,399
hidden somewhere and that that they were

806
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:31,360
just refused entry to the door

807
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:32,559
interesting

808
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,440
well

809
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:35,120
you bring up another thing um getting

810
00:32:39,269 --> 00:32:37,679
this book cleared uh i think that caught

811
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:39,279
a lot of people's eyes too that this

812
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:41,440
book literally had to be cleared before

813
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,559
publication

814
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:45,120
so my question is i guess

815
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,760
how much if you had to give a percentage

816
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:49,919
didn't make it in that they said nope

817
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:52,240
nope you're not going there um

818
00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:54,399
could you give a ballpark on that or is

819
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:56,559
that uh it's something you guys can't

820
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,679
talk about

821
00:33:03,190 --> 00:32:59,200
well i mean we

822
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:03,200
we uh got a uh we received from dobser

823
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,039
eventually and obviously things were

824
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:07,279
pretty slow because of covid

825
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:09,840
uh but the various reviews were farmed

826
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:12,080
out to different agencies and different

827
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,640
individuals within those agencies

828
00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:16,480
who who had a sort of they were

829
00:33:22,230 --> 00:33:19,120
stakeholders in you know being part of

830
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:22,240
this program so a lot of them uh sort of

831
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,960
went went through and changed

832
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:26,720
changed some of their details some of

833
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:27,600
their

834
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,799
affiliations

835
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:32,640
we were told to remove some of the

836
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:33,840
details

837
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:36,960
about the the location of the program at

838
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:39,600
defense intelligence agency we're also

839
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:42,720
told in many many different cases

840
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:44,960
to remove some of the

841
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:47,519
descriptions of

842
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:49,519
of individuals who are involved with the

843
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,480
program we were told to change the names

844
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:54,159
of many many individuals who were

845
00:33:58,630 --> 00:33:56,399
involved with this so

846
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:58,640
you know there were pretty comprehensive

847
00:34:03,350 --> 00:33:59,760
changes

848
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:03,360
uh demanded and also you know the the

849
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:06,399
layered on top of this obviously was the

850
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:09,839
the medical injury cases that we were

851
00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:13,280
investigating we had two uh md phd

852
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:15,599
physician scientists who were on

853
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:17,520
contract to assap

854
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:19,599
who could be deployed anywhere in the

855
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:20,879
country

856
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:23,599
to investigate uh some of these medical

857
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,520
injuries and we document some of those

858
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:27,919
in the book but um you know

859
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:29,599
this involves sort of taking blood

860
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,040
samples uh sometimes various imaging

861
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:36,000
techniques were utilized and following

862
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:38,320
people over many months and some cases

863
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:41,040
years that uh that were involved in

864
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:44,560
these close encounters with ufos so that

865
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:45,919
part of the

866
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:48,480
hipaa hipaa medical

867
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:50,480
medical confidentiality

868
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:52,800
was layered into

869
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:55,599
the insistence on the part of

870
00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:59,599
the reviewers to remove all of those

871
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:02,960
medical medical associated um

872
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,880
details that were part of these medical

873
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:07,440
injury cases i mean that's a fundamental

874
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:10,400
part of medical confidentiality that is

875
00:35:15,910 --> 00:35:13,599
very very strongly and seriously taken

876
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:15,920
in the united states government so any

877
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:17,839
deviation from that we were told to

878
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:20,240
remove all of that too and to make sure

879
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,200
that all of these uh personal

880
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:25,920
uh personal identification details were

881
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:28,160
removed from people especially people

882
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:30,480
who were still active duty military but

883
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:33,280
even people who were who who had uh were

884
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:35,760
going through the process of uh of

885
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:37,839
separating from the military all of

886
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:40,960
these uh names were we were also told to

887
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:43,680
uh to change and remove so there were

888
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,030
hey guys ryan here the summer in the

889
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,320
skies podcast is a labor of love every

890
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:56,400
week and with that comes many different

891
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:58,880
costs to keep the show running that's

892
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:01,599
where our patreon campaign comes in you

893
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,760
give what you think the show is worth

894
00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,079
there's different rewards available all

895
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:08,000
the time including shout outs on the

896
00:36:13,349 --> 00:36:10,560
show early editions of main episodes

897
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:13,359
bonus episodes and content and very soon

898
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:15,839
monthly patron hangouts where we sit

899
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:19,200
back and chat all things ufos so i hope

900
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:20,960
you'll consider becoming a patreon

901
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:23,440
subscriber today to learn more and to

902
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:26,800
join visit patreon.com

903
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:29,599
summerskies thank you for your support

904
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:38,470
well

905
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:39,839
and i want to move to some listener

906
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,599
questions come on we still have you here

907
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:43,599
but i've got kind of one last thing to

908
00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:45,920
cap it off with um my personal questions

909
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:48,000
for you guys now colm you work directly

910
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,400
with robert bigelow george i know you've

911
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:52,480
interviewed him face to face several

912
00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:55,119
times and um have spoken to him on a lot

913
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,480
of occasions

914
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:58,640
robert bigelow

915
00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:00,880
gathered a lot of data you guys did when

916
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:02,400
he was in charge of the ranch when he

917
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,640
owned the ranch through bass and even

918
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:06,880
through ossep but a lot of that was

919
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:09,520
never made public and i think a lot of

920
00:37:13,349 --> 00:37:11,200
people are frustrated that everything

921
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:13,359
collected um is something that the

922
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:16,480
public will never know about so i guess

923
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,560
point a to that question do you think

924
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,880
the public will ever be made aware of

925
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:23,280
the things that bigelow is in possession

926
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:24,079
when

927
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:29,839
the ranch and two um in terms of bigelow

928
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:30,800
uh

929
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:32,880
and also there's been some controversy

930
00:37:37,589 --> 00:37:35,760
over the security on the ranch that um

931
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:37,599
some have come forward and said that

932
00:37:41,829 --> 00:37:40,400
they were quote unquote test subjects so

933
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,839
i was i'm wondering if you guys could

934
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:43,920
speak to both of those points in terms

935
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:46,560
of will we ever see anything that

936
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:48,079
bigelow is in possession of when it

937
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:50,400
comes to evidence and were people used

938
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:53,200
as test subjects on the ranch that seems

939
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:55,599
very disturbing in my opinion

940
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:59,040
um i i can speak to the test subjects

941
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:01,200
thing initially and then we can get to

942
00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:03,520
the other question

943
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:06,880
i think there was a sort of a mistaken

944
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,920
um series of interpretations

945
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,480
um in the book that we we specifically

946
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:14,400
talk about one of the

947
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:16,720
uh one of the ways that

948
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:20,320
um or one of the viewpoints that were in

949
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:22,800
in the book regarding

950
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:25,839
uh ufo effects on people

951
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,000
was to essentially

952
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:30,960
utilize the human body as a readout

953
00:38:37,349 --> 00:38:33,839
system in terms of

954
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:37,359
ufo effects on people so one of the one

955
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:39,839
of the thoughts that were discussed and

956
00:38:46,069 --> 00:38:41,920
brainstormed at the start of the asap

957
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:46,079
program was the idea of contracting with

958
00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:49,680
um md phd people who were

959
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:51,280
very much

960
00:38:56,870 --> 00:38:54,640
aware of the effects of ufos on people

961
00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:56,880
some of which um you know have been

962
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,720
documented in the past for example

963
00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,400
radiation

964
00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:02,640
like effects people start losing their

965
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:05,520
hair they have metallic tastes in their

966
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,720
mouth

967
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:08,160
they go through

968
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:09,520
headaches

969
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:11,200
nausea

970
00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:12,960
and you know as you mentioned earlier

971
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,599
autoimmune diseases have manifested in

972
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,800
some people

973
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:18,560
as a result of close encounters with

974
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,680
ufos so the idea behind the

975
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:23,119
um the

976
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:26,960
original brainstorming at uh at asap

977
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:29,040
was in order to

978
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:29,920
um

979
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:32,560
you know in order to look at what these

980
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:36,160
uh ufo effects were we would be able to

981
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:39,119
with the permission of these um in the

982
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,200
individuals um we would be able to take

983
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:45,839
occasionally blood samples or

984
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:49,920
um or imaging of these people but um all

985
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:52,960
of the people involved were were

986
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:55,280
we had medical

987
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:01,670
infrastructure in place that was very

988
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:03,680
very very very careful

989
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:04,880
we had

990
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:09,920
that were informed consent

991
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:12,640
that were part of this we were operating

992
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:15,359
strictly in accordance with all of the

993
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:18,079
medical uh procedures that were out

994
00:40:24,550 --> 00:40:21,440
there so that we would conform to hipaa

995
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:24,560
regulations we would conform to medical

996
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,839
privacy um and so all of all of these

997
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:28,880
that were

998
00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:29,680
were

999
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:37,760
talking about skim walker ranch people

1000
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:40,400
i'm talking about people who for example

1001
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:44,079
we we talked in the book of uh of people

1002
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,720
one of these people in oregon who had

1003
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:48,800
blue orbs go through them

1004
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:51,280
um or one orb go through them who came

1005
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:55,200
down with the constellation of early

1006
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:58,480
non-ionizing radiation effects

1007
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,280
we we did obtain blood samples over time

1008
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:04,160
we did do imaging studies over time and

1009
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:07,760
so collectively all of those um all of

1010
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,040
those were were put into databases but

1011
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:13,520
they were completely protected all of

1012
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:16,480
the names of people involved um were

1013
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:19,520
completely protected uh from from a

1014
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:23,040
medical privacy perspective so uh we uh

1015
00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:26,880
conform completely um according to

1016
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,760
you know the rules of medical uh medical

1017
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:30,800
privacy

1018
00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,200
i i'd add this is by the time that osap

1019
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,839
started in 2008 the word was kind of out

1020
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:37,760
on skidwalker ranch i mean our book had

1021
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,599
been out for a couple of years the

1022
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,520
people in that area certainly knew about

1023
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:44,160
it and the guys who worked for bass and

1024
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:46,720
for nids bigelow aerospace they knew it

1025
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:48,480
was up out there anybody didn't want to

1026
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:50,720
go didn't have to go and a lot of people

1027
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:53,119
who went out there and had one shot at

1028
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:55,119
it said never again they wanted nothing

1029
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:56,560
to do with it so it wasn't a big

1030
00:42:02,309 --> 00:41:59,520
surprise pulling some something over the

1031
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:02,319
the wool over their heads as for um you

1032
00:42:06,309 --> 00:42:05,119
know the the bigelow information ever

1033
00:42:07,589 --> 00:42:06,319
being released

1034
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:07,599
the book we wrote hunt for the

1035
00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:10,160
skinwalker is the data from nids it's

1036
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:11,839
the story of the news investigation of

1037
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:14,160
the ranch and although there might be

1038
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:15,680
bits and pieces here and there that have

1039
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,520
never been made public and i think

1040
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:19,680
probably mr bigelow has images that he's

1041
00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:21,920
never made public that's pretty much

1042
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:23,520
everything that happened we told the

1043
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:26,079
story as as thoroughly as we could and

1044
00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:27,520
the result of that is something called

1045
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:30,240
asap was created as for the second book

1046
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,920
same kind of thing the skin markers of

1047
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:33,040
the pentagon

1048
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,119
we want people to find those files i

1049
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:37,440
mean that's why we put there's 125

1050
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:39,440
reports or so that were written

1051
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:42,079
by the guys for assaf by the bass team

1052
00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:43,520
for the dia

1053
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:45,599
we're not talking about 10 12 page

1054
00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:47,599
reports some of these things are three

1055
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,319
400 pages long we listed all of them and

1056
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:52,240
that was on purpose we wanted people to

1057
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:54,800
find them we go after it file a foia go

1058
00:42:58,630 --> 00:42:56,800
get them we couldn't publish all that

1059
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,640
stuff we weren't allowed to but we

1060
00:43:02,309 --> 00:43:00,560
wanted people to know it was out there

1061
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,319
and i think when that information

1062
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:04,079
becomes public and it will it'll become

1063
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:06,319
public there's a new website that claims

1064
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:08,079
it's publishing all that stuff i think

1065
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,079
came up last week

1066
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:12,319
yesterday i don't know if it's actually

1067
00:43:16,069 --> 00:43:14,160
publishing it and anybody has seen that

1068
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:16,079
stuff but good it should be public

1069
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:17,520
there's nothing classified in there the

1070
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:19,280
public should see that that's why we

1071
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,800
wrote the book we wanted people to go

1072
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,480
out and get it

1073
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:24,720
right yeah um the website you're

1074
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,480
referring to i think they actually went

1075
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:29,359
live as we were recording this if not

1076
00:43:36,069 --> 00:43:31,760
today called phenom

1077
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:36,079
ion phenomenon um it's an aei system

1078
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:38,640
that's collecting databases from mufon

1079
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,160
from new fork

1080
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:42,400
and they claim that they also have a lot

1081
00:43:47,349 --> 00:43:45,359
of um skinwalker ranch data as well that

1082
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:47,359
they're putting in the cloud that people

1083
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,480
will be able to access so there we go

1084
00:43:55,589 --> 00:43:53,200
like there's been progress already and

1085
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:55,599
i'm sure a lot of that was inspired by

1086
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:57,520
uh the follow-up book that you guys put

1087
00:44:01,510 --> 00:43:59,440
out people want to know they want to see

1088
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:01,520
the pictures they want to see the data

1089
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:03,599
um so look if we're not going to get it

1090
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:06,160
from bigelow um we're going to get it

1091
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,000
somehow like you said george and i think

1092
00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:10,160
that's what people should focus on i

1093
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:12,640
highly suggest people check that out um

1094
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:13,920
phenom i

1095
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:16,160
none i'll put the link in the show notes

1096
00:44:21,109 --> 00:44:18,319
for that it's pretty interesting i mean

1097
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:21,119
there were hundreds of documented cases

1098
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:22,720
from skinwalker wrench that are

1099
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,040
available to the public so i i think

1100
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:27,200
that's pretty cool

1101
00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:29,680
i would just add the caveat though that

1102
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:30,640
um

1103
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,599
it's really important that if this data

1104
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:35,040
is released

1105
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:39,119
that the medical confidentiality

1106
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:41,839
is respected now i don't know i i

1107
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,560
actually have not checked out this this

1108
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:46,800
website yet but um

1109
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,839
we we went to extraordinary lengths in

1110
00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:51,920
publishing our book skin workers of the

1111
00:44:56,069 --> 00:44:54,960
pentagon to protect people's medical

1112
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:56,079
privacy

1113
00:45:02,150 --> 00:44:59,440
and i i would hope that

1114
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:02,160
if there are data being released

1115
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:04,480
that these medical privacy guidelines

1116
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:06,720
that conform to hipaa are being

1117
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:09,920
respected and also people who have

1118
00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:12,640
active military service who are a

1119
00:45:19,589 --> 00:45:16,240
retired military who have expressly

1120
00:45:21,309 --> 00:45:19,599
forbidden their names to be out there um

1121
00:45:23,829 --> 00:45:21,319
i would hope that their their

1122
00:45:26,309 --> 00:45:23,839
confidentiality has been protected i

1123
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,319
don't know i mean i i have not looked at

1124
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:29,200
this at this website but um that's one

1125
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:32,560
of my concerns is that that um you know

1126
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:34,960
we we went round the block multiple

1127
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:36,560
times to come to

1128
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:38,960
protect people's medical privacy and

1129
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:41,839
that's a sort of a very basic violation

1130
00:45:45,829 --> 00:45:43,920
if it is if it is happening i don't know

1131
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:45,839
if it's happening but i would put that

1132
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:47,760
out as a caveat

1133
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:49,599
i'll tell this tell you this is that you

1134
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:52,000
know column and i are both familiar with

1135
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:53,920
what's in those reports right in those

1136
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:56,400
documents he more than i he

1137
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:58,560
oversaw writing all of them and it's a

1138
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,560
gigantic pile of information

1139
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:02,240
thousands and thousands of pages in

1140
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,800
these reports there's no mention of atec

1141
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:06,560
there's no mention of atip at all

1142
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:08,400
because it didn't exist while the asap

1143
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:10,800
study was underway so i look forward to

1144
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:13,599
seeing whatever atip produced during the

1145
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,000
study during its study and i hope if

1146
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,640
somebody who leaked the awesome stuff

1147
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:20,640
can also get the atap files assuming

1148
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,640
that they exist somewhere and put them

1149
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:24,160
up as well because we'd all like to read

1150
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:25,520
them

1151
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:27,599
yes we would absolutely if you're

1152
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:30,000
watching out there please please do us

1153
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:32,800
all a favor um well colin before i let

1154
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:34,480
you go man i want to get your thoughts

1155
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:37,440
on this too as well as george the stuff

1156
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:39,119
going on right now at the ranch you know

1157
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:41,520
we have a television show on the history

1158
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:43,359
channel which is insane to think that we

1159
00:46:48,870 --> 00:46:46,400
now have a skinwalker ranch television

1160
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:48,880
series so what are your guys personal

1161
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:51,839
thoughts on the new owner what's going

1162
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,560
on there have you guys been back out to

1163
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:56,800
the ranch or do either of you plan on

1164
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,200
doing any more reporting directly from

1165
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:02,160
the ranch or even investigation uh yeah

1166
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:03,599
what do you make of everything going on

1167
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:06,480
right now at skinwalker ranch

1168
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:08,800
well i i um

1169
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:12,720
shortly after or shortly before um

1170
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:15,359
brandon fugle bought the uh the property

1171
00:47:22,069 --> 00:47:18,960
from robert bigelow in uh march of 2016

1172
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:22,079
actually george and i took a took a trip

1173
00:47:27,670 --> 00:47:24,640
up to skinwalker ranch and it was kind

1174
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:27,680
of like a handover trip where we were

1175
00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:30,160
just checking out making sure that um

1176
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:31,040
the

1177
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:34,480
we had not left

1178
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:37,200
uh any any extraneous stuff over there

1179
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:40,800
so we walked the property we uh we we

1180
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,119
made sure that the skin marker ranch was

1181
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:45,440
kind of ready for the new owner and the

1182
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:47,359
new owner took possession of it probably

1183
00:47:52,309 --> 00:47:50,000
a few days or a week or so after we had

1184
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:52,319
been on the property but you know george

1185
00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:53,839
and i i

1186
00:47:58,069 --> 00:47:56,240
had a really good trip up there that's

1187
00:48:00,309 --> 00:47:58,079
the last time i personally have been up

1188
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:00,319
on skinwalker ranch i know george has

1189
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:03,440
been up there uh since then um but i do

1190
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:05,680
know that what brandon fugle and his

1191
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:06,400
team

1192
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:09,040
travis taylor and these other people

1193
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,280
um i think initially when they took over

1194
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:13,599
the property there was a high level of

1195
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,599
skepticism about

1196
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:17,920
you know all of the quote-unquote uh

1197
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,680
stories that had been uh reported by uh

1198
00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:23,599
the national institute for discovery

1199
00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:25,119
science and by

1200
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:27,839
um you know the bass the bass asap

1201
00:48:32,870 --> 00:48:29,920
program and all of that so it was a lot

1202
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:32,880
of skepticism but over time i think a

1203
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:36,079
lot of the experiences that these people

1204
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:39,200
have had on the property and also

1205
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:41,599
bringing bringing stuff home with them

1206
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:43,920
we've there's been a lot of apocryphal

1207
00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:47,359
stories uh about people bringing home uh

1208
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:49,200
stuff home with them the so-called

1209
00:48:54,470 --> 00:48:52,000
hitchhiker effect uh jim segala had a

1210
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:54,480
really interesting show there recently

1211
00:49:00,390 --> 00:48:58,160
uh a radio show uh in which he reported

1212
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:00,400
um you know on the on the so-called

1213
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:03,680
hitchhiker effect i think brandon fugel

1214
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:06,319
and his team have done a tremendous job

1215
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:10,720
in carrying on the investigative

1216
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:11,839
you know

1217
00:49:17,589 --> 00:49:14,880
momentum that was generated by nids and

1218
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:17,599
by ossap and i mean we can look at

1219
00:49:25,109 --> 00:49:20,800
skinwalker ranch in 2022

1220
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:25,119
and go all the way back to uh 1996

1221
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:27,359
and and you know we can definitively say

1222
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:30,880
it's probably the most studied 500 acre

1223
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:33,280
property on earth

1224
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,079
with respect to both human involvement

1225
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:38,480
and also multiple sensors

1226
00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:39,920
i've had a lot of interaction with

1227
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:43,040
brandon with thomas winterton with eric

1228
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:45,359
bard and other members of their team and

1229
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:46,960
i have been back to the ranch a couple

1230
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,520
times since column and i's visit in 2016

1231
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,760
sort of the farewell and uh you know i

1232
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:52,880
think

1233
00:49:57,829 --> 00:49:55,440
uh just as they were skeptical about the

1234
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:57,839
ranch and the nids study and and all the

1235
00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:59,920
rumors about the bulletproof wolf and

1236
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:02,160
bigfoot creatures and poltergeist and

1237
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:04,160
the effects of digging in the ground and

1238
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:05,599
of course they were skeptical and didn't

1239
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:06,720
believe it

1240
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:08,880
highly skeptical i would say even

1241
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:11,119
derisive about the whole thing

1242
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:13,440
but they took their time got their feet

1243
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:14,880
on the ground they spent a couple of

1244
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:16,720
years there getting their heads around

1245
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:18,880
it and they learned long before that tv

1246
00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:20,559
show got fired up that this was real

1247
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,400
that it was really going on i think they

1248
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,480
brought in travis taylor who was really

1249
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:26,640
skeptical that was his role to be the

1250
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:28,800
skeptical scientist he's not a skeptic

1251
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:30,400
anymore because the things have happened

1252
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:32,559
to him just as they've happened to all

1253
00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:34,640
the members of that team i'm so glad

1254
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:36,480
that they continued the research that

1255
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:38,400
brandon has put a lot of new resources

1256
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:40,800
and energy into figuring it out i would

1257
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:43,760
just i've warned them person to person

1258
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:46,800
that uh that entity that intelligence

1259
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:49,040
whatever it is is fickle out there and

1260
00:50:53,910 --> 00:50:51,040
you may have a really hit show for a

1261
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:53,920
while and suddenly mr skinwalker says

1262
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,760
i'm out of here because that's what it

1263
00:50:59,109 --> 00:50:57,359
did to knits i mean that's why the nids

1264
00:51:00,870 --> 00:50:59,119
thing ended because it got tired of

1265
00:51:02,710 --> 00:51:00,880
being hunted and it just left and the

1266
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:02,720
activity died down to the point where

1267
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:04,559
there was nothing left to study and then

1268
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:06,800
it came back so i hope it continues i

1269
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:09,119
wish them nothing but the best i'm not

1270
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:11,280
really uh all that thrilled about going

1271
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,559
back but i probably will at some point

1272
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:16,800
nice that's good to hear yeah the

1273
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:19,440
skinwalker can be a diva sometimes she

1274
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,200
doesn't want to get on camera i get it

1275
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,040
and it's kind of like rolling the dice

1276
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:25,040
you know you never know which visit

1277
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:26,319
you're going to go there and you're

1278
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,440
going to bring something home it's

1279
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:29,920
really bad exactly yeah i mean just as

1280
00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:32,400
as a coder to that i i think i

1281
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:34,720
personally spent about 300 days and

1282
00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:37,520
nights on skinwalker ranch during the

1283
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:39,440
you know the 90s era

1284
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:40,319
and

1285
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:45,440
95 of the time it's a beautiful pristine

1286
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,359
uh branch that is i mean the the the

1287
00:51:54,549 --> 00:51:51,599
views are breathtaking it's a beautiful

1288
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:54,559
place but that five percent when stuff

1289
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,440
is happening everything changes i mean

1290
00:52:02,309 --> 00:51:59,680
the atmosphere changes the dogs start

1291
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,319
acting differently cattle start acting

1292
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:04,640
differently i mean everything changes

1293
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:06,800
during that five percent but for 95

1294
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:08,319
percent of the time

1295
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:12,000
um you know it's a beautiful western

1296
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:13,440
uh ranch

1297
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:15,280
it's very interesting the phenomenon

1298
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:17,920
does seem to you know tap and nudge when

1299
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:20,880
it wants to and uh puts you in your

1300
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:23,280
shoes and in the immediate moment more

1301
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:24,559
than anything

1302
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:27,040
possibly can so i love that aspect of

1303
00:52:31,750 --> 00:52:29,119
this tricksterish nature of the

1304
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:31,760
phenomena just when you least expect it

1305
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:34,640
um cole i know you have to get going um

1306
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,800
so if there's anything left you want to

1307
00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:38,160
share with our audience what you want

1308
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:41,359
them to take from the book uh and what

1309
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,040
you think they should focus on moving

1310
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:45,599
forward with skinwalker ranch and these

1311
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:47,359
phenomena in general is there anything

1312
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:49,760
you want to leave our audience with

1313
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:53,599
well i would hope that the um the

1314
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:56,400
skidmarkers at the pentagon uh we we put

1315
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,720
in a lot of appendices in the book and

1316
00:53:02,549 --> 00:53:00,400
appendix number two

1317
00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:02,559
is a sort of a structure of what a

1318
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:05,280
future program would look like i would

1319
00:53:10,470 --> 00:53:06,800
hope that the

1320
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:10,480
asap program could serve as a sort of a

1321
00:53:14,230 --> 00:53:11,680
template

1322
00:53:15,349 --> 00:53:14,240
for a future ufo program that would

1323
00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:15,359
involve

1324
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:16,720
you know both

1325
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:19,920
studying the ufo performance

1326
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:22,880
and deploying sensors where they can but

1327
00:53:27,829 --> 00:53:25,599
at the same time studying ufo effects on

1328
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:27,839
people because i mean after all without

1329
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:30,559
humans does a tree you know fall in the

1330
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:33,280
forest and there's nobody here there can

1331
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:36,000
can nobody hear it type thing um just

1332
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:38,559
just like ufo activity

1333
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,160
um they do affect humans they do create

1334
00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:44,880
fundamental life-changing effects on

1335
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:47,599
humans so i would hope a future ufo

1336
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:50,640
program could conform to the

1337
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:53,359
asap template that was created and we

1338
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,280
still believe that was a very very

1339
00:53:59,190 --> 00:53:58,079
successful template that that served the

1340
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:59,200
united states

1341
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:01,920
states government in terms of generating

1342
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,680
104 technical reports on the various

1343
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:07,920
aspects and dimensions of the ufo

1344
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:10,559
phenomenon so i would if i look to the

1345
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:13,359
future i would hope that the asap

1346
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,000
program could serve as a template for

1347
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:18,319
future ufo programs

1348
00:54:23,109 --> 00:54:21,040
fantastic building off of the shoulders

1349
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:23,119
of these phenomena i love it i love it

1350
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:25,280
well comb i want to thank you for being

1351
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:28,240
here tonight um i know you know

1352
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:31,040
you were on the ranch for so long you

1353
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:33,839
experienced so many i'm i would assume

1354
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:36,640
life-altering things and that can weigh

1355
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:39,280
on a person it really can when the world

1356
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,119
just kind of changes in front of your

1357
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:44,000
very eyes so um i gotta thank you for

1358
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:46,000
being courageous enough to do that i

1359
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:47,760
don't think i could be one of those

1360
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:49,440
people to spend that much time on the

1361
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,079
ranch um but i want to thank you more

1362
00:54:56,789 --> 00:54:54,400
for taking the time to uh write this

1363
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:56,799
book with george and with james and for

1364
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:58,480
sure

1365
00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:00,559
that you know this is a place we need

1366
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:02,000
that needs further study and could

1367
00:55:06,230 --> 00:55:04,000
ultimately whatever these phenomena are

1368
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:06,240
could change the world so thank you

1369
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:07,920
thank you for all your work thank you

1370
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,920
ryan it was great to talk to you

1371
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:11,920
and good good luck with your podcast

1372
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:14,799
it's uh seems like a really good one

1373
00:55:18,710 --> 00:55:16,480
george thank you for sticking around for

1374
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:18,720
some of our listener questions as well i

1375
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:20,799
really do appreciate your time um i'm

1376
00:55:26,789 --> 00:55:23,839
gonna start with luis luis jimenez of

1377
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,799
the unidentified celebrity review um

1378
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:29,200
really values the work you've done as a

1379
00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:31,119
journalist throughout the years as many

1380
00:55:38,069 --> 00:55:34,240
of us have in this world that we live in

1381
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:38,079
of ufos every day and the uh you know

1382
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:40,640
the the nature of trying to cover this

1383
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,240
topic in a very credible way is not easy

1384
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:46,640
so we commend you on that and lu wants

1385
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:50,160
to know where do you see the future of

1386
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:52,160
the discussion in the next five to ten

1387
00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:54,640
years when it comes to ufos in terms of

1388
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:57,119
mainstream journalism do you think we're

1389
00:56:01,829 --> 00:55:59,280
gonna be at a point where it's okay to

1390
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:01,839
finally talk about werewolves and

1391
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:05,520
portals and um you know dino beavers

1392
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:07,119
even as people have

1393
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:09,040
claimed to have seen on the bridge do

1394
00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:11,040
you think this will ever be a discussion

1395
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:13,599
the mainstream will be a part of

1396
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:15,599
well it's gonna have to be because you

1397
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:18,240
know we've got 75 years of

1398
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:20,799
lights in the sky radar returns things

1399
00:56:25,829 --> 00:56:23,520
of that sort ufo case after case after

1400
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:25,839
case you are never going to solve this

1401
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:27,920
mystery by only studying things that

1402
00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:30,079
flit around in the sky or that pop into

1403
00:56:33,910 --> 00:56:32,319
the ocean i mean how many of those cases

1404
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:33,920
do you need to figure out that something

1405
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:35,920
is flying around up there

1406
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:39,119
down here uh that is not us you know i

1407
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:40,960
think that case has been made already

1408
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:43,200
you gotta you gotta get your hands dirty

1409
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:45,280
uh you know i it occurred to me as i was

1410
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,880
playing with a laser pointer with our

1411
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:48,799
cats a couple of weeks ago

1412
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:50,079
i'm playing with this thing and they

1413
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:51,760
never catch it and that's kind of what

1414
00:56:56,230 --> 00:56:54,240
it is like with this ufo stuff we're

1415
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:56,240
never going to catch one of those i mean

1416
00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:57,520
other than the ones that might be

1417
00:57:01,270 --> 00:56:59,440
stashed in a hanger somewhere but we're

1418
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:01,280
not going to solve the mystery just by

1419
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:03,359
chasing lights in the sky or a laser

1420
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:05,920
pointer on on the carpet uh you gotta

1421
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:08,000
you gotta dig down into it and follow

1422
00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:09,839
the evidence where it leads that's what

1423
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:12,000
asap did you know follow the evidence

1424
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,359
where it leads they did not want to

1425
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:15,760
study bigfoot they didn't want to have

1426
00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:18,480
dig into poltergeist type phenomena they

1427
00:57:22,069 --> 00:57:20,160
certainly didn't expect to run into

1428
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,079
hitchhiker effects for intelligence

1429
00:57:26,470 --> 00:57:24,640
agents and officers um but all you have

1430
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:26,480
to follow where it leads what does it

1431
00:57:31,829 --> 00:57:29,119
mean a place like skinwalker ranch

1432
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:31,839
unique uh in in the sense that all of

1433
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:32,720
this

1434
00:57:36,150 --> 00:57:34,720
paranormal phenomena is concentrated in

1435
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:36,160
one spot

1436
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:37,520
there are other places like it in the

1437
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:39,280
world just nothing that's been as

1438
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:40,960
intensely studied over such a longer

1439
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:43,040
period of time as this one where you've

1440
00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:46,720
got ufos orbs poltergeist type activity

1441
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:49,280
crop circles bigfoot animal mutilations

1442
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:51,680
all at once are they all related when

1443
00:57:55,589 --> 00:57:53,760
one happens when the orbs appear when

1444
00:57:58,630 --> 00:57:55,599
saucers are in the sky these other

1445
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:58,640
things occur as well suggests some sort

1446
00:58:03,190 --> 00:58:00,960
of a relationship you have to study that

1447
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:03,200
you know so whether people like it or

1448
00:58:07,589 --> 00:58:05,280
not and you know we're on the receiving

1449
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:07,599
end of a lot of dino beaver jokes we

1450
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:09,440
didn't make it up you know colin

1451
00:58:14,069 --> 00:58:12,160
kelleher is the guy who saw it

1452
00:58:16,069 --> 00:58:14,079
you know now that he's gone i can say

1453
00:58:17,589 --> 00:58:16,079
there's nobody more humble and more

1454
00:58:21,030 --> 00:58:17,599
careful and more professional than

1455
00:58:23,430 --> 00:58:21,040
column the guy's rock solid uh he's

1456
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:23,440
honored his security oaths uh you know

1457
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:25,359
he's wanted to tell as much of the story

1458
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:28,319
as he can without crossing over a line

1459
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,839
as he said he's been out there hundreds

1460
00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:32,079
of nights on on skinwalker ranch out in

1461
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:34,079
the dark by himself

1462
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:36,559
absolutely courageous you know he's the

1463
00:58:40,069 --> 00:58:38,559
kind of model for the kind of

1464
00:58:42,789 --> 00:58:40,079
investigator we need to get to the

1465
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:42,799
bottom of this i would also hope

1466
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:44,960
that journalists my fellow journalists

1467
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:47,440
now have a taste of this you know for as

1468
00:58:50,950 --> 00:58:49,200
long as i've been doing it i still think

1469
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:50,960
of myself as a newcomer and now i

1470
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:52,640
realize my hair is a little bit gray and

1471
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,480
i'm not really a newcomer to this that

1472
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:56,880
i've been at it for more than 30 years

1473
00:59:01,829 --> 00:59:00,160
but you know when i started and realized

1474
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:01,839
i got into it i was really cocky

1475
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:04,079
thinking well what this topic needs is a

1476
00:59:07,670 --> 00:59:06,079
good journalist i'll have this wrapped

1477
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:07,680
up in like six months

1478
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:10,079
and of course you know i know a lot more

1479
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:12,240
and understand a lot less

1480
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:13,760
30 years later

1481
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:15,440
a lot of journalists now are taking a

1482
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:17,280
whack at it and they're getting it wrong

1483
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:19,200
and they'll they'll look for the

1484
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:21,440
low-hanging fruit as opposed to doing

1485
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:23,119
what journalists are supposed to do

1486
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:25,119
investigate the unexplained and not

1487
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:27,680
explain the uninvestigated i you know i

1488
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:29,119
don't want to beat up the new york times

1489
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:30,960
too much for getting things wrong i

1490
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:33,040
think they did their best leslie kane

1491
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:34,960
and ralph blumenthal are terrific

1492
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:37,359
reporters they had a heavy lift to get

1493
00:59:41,910 --> 00:59:39,280
that story told and get it past their

1494
00:59:43,030 --> 00:59:41,920
editors i think they were misled by some

1495
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:43,040
of the people who are feeding them

1496
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:45,440
information and they got it wrong

1497
00:59:49,270 --> 00:59:47,040
when you get those things wrong you

1498
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:49,280
gotta correct it uh i think they have

1499
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:52,720
inspired a new generation of uh of

1500
00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:54,400
journalists to go ahead and take a look

1501
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:56,799
at this which i've encouraged for a long

1502
01:00:01,589 --> 00:59:59,680
time look this is a legitimate story

1503
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:01,599
and you approach it the same way you do

1504
01:00:06,549 --> 01:00:04,079
with any other story find reliable

1505
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:06,559
information confirm the information

1506
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:09,040
get reliable sources follow the paper

1507
01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:11,760
trail treat it like any other story

1508
01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:13,680
and and see where it leads you know i

1509
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:15,280
don't know that we're ever going to

1510
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:17,200
solve this mystery but at least now

1511
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:19,119
there's a new energy in part because of

1512
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:21,760
elizondo blew the lid off of this thing

1513
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:24,559
him coming forward with that story um

1514
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:26,960
has has opened up new doors because the

1515
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:29,599
media took it seriously congress got

1516
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,040
interested and now it's a whole new

1517
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:33,599
world it's a whole new ballgame for ufos

1518
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,240
and journalism played a big role in that

1519
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:38,160
well that that whole new ballgame george

1520
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:40,400
i'd love your thoughts on everything

1521
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:41,920
going on right now like you mentioned

1522
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:44,319
this was a snowball effect ever since

1523
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:47,440
the times article came out uh the world

1524
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:49,920
has changed in terms of the way the

1525
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:51,040
public

1526
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:53,920
is uh gradually accepting

1527
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:56,079
these stories and these phenomena and we

1528
01:01:02,309 --> 01:01:00,000
also have the us military now prompting

1529
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:02,319
their their members to report these

1530
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:04,880
things this was not the case for a very

1531
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:07,760
long time so you can't sit here anyone

1532
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,160
and say that nothing has changed since

1533
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,160
this has all happened so yeah what do

1534
01:01:16,789 --> 01:01:14,480
you personally think we're getting a new

1535
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:16,799
office in the pentagon i mean this is

1536
01:01:21,910 --> 01:01:19,760
crazy that we've kind of circled back to

1537
01:01:24,870 --> 01:01:21,920
this that our government is going to

1538
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:24,880
look at this issue again with hopefully

1539
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:26,640
fresh eyes but what do you make of

1540
01:01:30,390 --> 01:01:28,799
everything going on right now in the ufo

1541
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:30,400
conversation

1542
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:32,400
well i've said this a couple of times i

1543
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:34,319
never thought i'd see it in my lifetime

1544
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:36,720
the level of change the tectonic level

1545
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,480
of changes that have happened in the

1546
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:40,319
last four years or so

1547
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:41,839
since that new york times story kind of

1548
01:01:46,710 --> 01:01:44,400
kicked things off i mean you know it

1549
01:01:48,069 --> 01:01:46,720
if we left it up to robert bigelow god

1550
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:48,079
bless him i don't think he would have

1551
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:49,599
released any of this stuff if lou

1552
01:01:53,589 --> 01:01:51,680
hellozando hadn't come forward i'm not

1553
01:01:55,990 --> 01:01:53,599
sure jim lakatsky would if they could

1554
01:01:58,309 --> 01:01:56,000
have continued the awsap program with

1555
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,319
funding and operating in secrecy i would

1556
01:02:02,309 --> 01:01:59,920
think we would still not know about it

1557
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:02,319
you know but but we do know about it and

1558
01:02:05,829 --> 01:02:03,760
and that's dramatic the fact that

1559
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:05,839
congress's interest is interested and

1560
01:02:11,029 --> 01:02:08,720
they've ordered the pentagon to to take

1561
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:11,039
action is all great but i would temper

1562
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:13,280
our expectations here on multiple

1563
01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:15,359
multiple levels for one thing

1564
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:17,680
public interest seems high right now

1565
01:02:21,430 --> 01:02:19,599
certainly compared to the last decade or

1566
01:02:23,109 --> 01:02:21,440
two decades ago but there have been

1567
01:02:26,710 --> 01:02:23,119
peaks and valleys of public interest in

1568
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:26,720
the past 1952 we're 60 years from that

1569
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:28,880
there was a gigantic wave a great deal

1570
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:30,640
of interest in congress and the public

1571
01:02:33,510 --> 01:02:32,720
in the media and then it went away you

1572
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:33,520
know

1573
01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:34,960
so it's happened before and it can

1574
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:36,960
happen again there's a broad interest

1575
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,760
among the public globally now and ufos

1576
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:41,680
but it's always a secondary interest

1577
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:44,079
it's only a small group of us on ufo

1578
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:46,400
twitter and watching your podcast ryan

1579
01:02:50,390 --> 01:02:48,240
that that live and die by this stuff and

1580
01:02:54,150 --> 01:02:50,400
pay attention to it every day the rest

1581
01:02:55,510 --> 01:02:54,160
of the the world has jobs bills to pay

1582
01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:55,520
they're worried about the ukraine

1583
01:02:59,109 --> 01:02:57,119
they're worried about climate change

1584
01:03:01,589 --> 01:02:59,119
there's all kinds of stuff that is a

1585
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:01,599
higher priority than ufos for most

1586
01:03:04,870 --> 01:03:02,799
people so

1587
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:04,880
uh you know my sense of what's going on

1588
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:06,640
at the pentagon is they are being

1589
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:08,640
dragged kicking and screaming into this

1590
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:10,240
that they are dragging their feet as

1591
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:12,160
much as possible that people of the

1592
01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:13,359
higher ups don't want this

1593
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:14,960
responsibility

1594
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:16,079
they don't want to share this

1595
01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:17,839
information and they'll do everything

1596
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:21,520
they can to obscure it and and to

1597
01:03:25,829 --> 01:03:24,079
to fight progress i i think you know i

1598
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,839
sympathize with them to a degree in when

1599
01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:27,119
they say that you can't tell your

1600
01:03:31,190 --> 01:03:29,359
friends without telling your enemies

1601
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,200
there there are those who would like to

1602
01:03:34,710 --> 01:03:32,880
share a lot more information with us

1603
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:34,720
that's not going to happen you know i

1604
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:36,480
think it's they're going to have to be

1605
01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:38,559
drag kicking and screaming into some

1606
01:03:42,230 --> 01:03:40,480
sort of transparency congress is going

1607
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:42,240
to have to stay on top of them because

1608
01:03:46,789 --> 01:03:44,000
if they can get away with returning to

1609
01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:46,799
the secrecy of old they'll do it do you

1610
01:03:53,109 --> 01:03:50,160
have any hope that we in the public will

1611
01:03:54,470 --> 01:03:53,119
will get anything from this new program

1612
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:54,480
that's going to be happening i mean

1613
01:03:58,630 --> 01:03:56,720
thank god for senators who are kind of

1614
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,640
holding their feet to the fire and

1615
01:04:02,710 --> 01:04:00,240
saying you need to give a report to the

1616
01:04:05,029 --> 01:04:02,720
public as well we understand things are

1617
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:05,039
classified to an extent but there needs

1618
01:04:09,670 --> 01:04:07,599
to be a report i think it's going to be

1619
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:09,680
quarterly that they'll have to produce

1620
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,839
in terms of what they've discovered um

1621
01:04:15,430 --> 01:04:13,119
what do you think we're gonna see

1622
01:04:17,510 --> 01:04:15,440
anything from this new program well it's

1623
01:04:19,510 --> 01:04:17,520
like the uap task force i respect the

1624
01:04:21,670 --> 01:04:19,520
people that were working on that but you

1625
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:21,680
saw what we got i mean i there was real

1626
01:04:28,230 --> 01:04:25,680
news in there you know 144 cases 143 are

1627
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:28,240
unexplained that's real that's really a

1628
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:30,319
newsworthy piece of information well we

1629
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:32,480
had no details are we going to get

1630
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,240
details about the cases where they

1631
01:04:39,029 --> 01:04:36,960
happen i doubt it so again i would

1632
01:04:40,470 --> 01:04:39,039
temper my expectations and then the

1633
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:40,480
larger picture

1634
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:42,640
will we ever figure this out

1635
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:44,319
i'm not convinced

1636
01:04:49,990 --> 01:04:48,000
to figure it out it seems like it's

1637
01:04:52,950 --> 01:04:50,000
always a couple of couple of inches

1638
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:52,960
outside of our our reach that it mutates

1639
01:04:57,270 --> 01:04:54,960
and morphs and changes into different

1640
01:04:58,870 --> 01:04:57,280
kinds of mysteries and things and things

1641
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,880
that of strange phenomena that were

1642
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:00,720
described that could be the same as

1643
01:05:05,430 --> 01:05:02,799
what's going on now described a thousand

1644
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:05,440
years ago as something else we still

1645
01:05:09,589 --> 01:05:07,359
don't understand that and i'm not sure a

1646
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:09,599
thousand years from now we'll understand

1647
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:12,160
uh what these things are now i i hope we

1648
01:05:14,549 --> 01:05:12,880
do

1649
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:14,559
but i'm not convinced

1650
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:16,319
i would have to agree you know i just

1651
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:18,880
have hope that you know within my

1652
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:20,720
generation's time we'll have some of

1653
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,280
those answers or my kids uh that'd be

1654
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,680
pretty awesome but hey the progress we

1655
01:05:29,589 --> 01:05:27,280
made in the last four years is more than

1656
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:29,599
we probably made in the last 70 plus

1657
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:32,240
years so i have faith i have faith well

1658
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:35,280
i guess kind of to wrap it up george um

1659
01:05:39,990 --> 01:05:37,119
a lot of people want to know will there

1660
01:05:41,270 --> 01:05:40,000
be an audiobook version of skinwalkers

1661
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:41,280
at the pentagon is that anything you

1662
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:42,720
guys are planning on

1663
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:43,680
yes

1664
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:46,960
could be out we expect it out this

1665
01:05:51,589 --> 01:05:48,400
summer yeah

1666
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:51,599
oh fantastic yeah yeah it's it's uh

1667
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:53,280
we got a real professional guy who's

1668
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:55,520
who's leading the charge on that we're

1669
01:05:59,190 --> 01:05:57,440
all contributing what we can and i think

1670
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:59,200
it uh i think it'll be really good so

1671
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:01,680
i'm looking forward to hearing it myself

1672
01:06:05,349 --> 01:06:03,440
that's fantastic i know a lot of people

1673
01:06:07,430 --> 01:06:05,359
are going to be excited about that um

1674
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:07,440
last question for you george before we

1675
01:06:12,230 --> 01:06:10,160
go here um i asked homeless as well

1676
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,240
what do you hope people will take away

1677
01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:14,400
from the book you know it there's

1678
01:06:19,430 --> 01:06:16,799
amazing stories in there they're very

1679
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:19,440
interesting we you know very compelling

1680
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:22,000
but at the core of this book it says

1681
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:24,240
more than just you know here's this

1682
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:26,240
mysterious ranch there's all these

1683
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:28,480
things going on like there is a

1684
01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:31,359
implication to all of that to the to the

1685
01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:34,079
public to humanity in general so what do

1686
01:06:38,069 --> 01:06:35,760
you hope people will really take away

1687
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:38,079
from the research the reporting you've

1688
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:40,079
done on skin marker ranch and more

1689
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:41,920
specifically the book of course

1690
01:06:46,390 --> 01:06:44,640
skinwalkers ranch plays a central role

1691
01:06:48,870 --> 01:06:46,400
in the book but it's so much bigger than

1692
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:48,880
that it was one slice of a very large

1693
01:06:53,349 --> 01:06:51,039
program what i'd like people understand

1694
01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:53,359
is that you know it takes courage to go

1695
01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:56,079
after this stuff it takes resources too

1696
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:59,039
asap if it had been allowed to continue

1697
01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:00,880
it might have some answers by now it did

1698
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:02,640
an amazing amount of work in a short

1699
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:05,280
period of time 27 months when the public

1700
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:06,960
gets a look at the reports that were

1701
01:07:10,309 --> 01:07:08,880
produced that we list in the book

1702
01:07:12,230 --> 01:07:10,319
they're going to be blown away i mean

1703
01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:12,240
they really worked hard the government

1704
01:07:17,190 --> 01:07:14,160
got its 22 million dollars worth for

1705
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:17,200
sure but you can't just study this stuff

1706
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:20,000
lights in the sky radar returns you got

1707
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:21,599
to follow the evidence where it leads

1708
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:23,280
that's what those guys did they had the

1709
01:07:28,069 --> 01:07:25,839
guts to do it the dia for two years

1710
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,079
allowed them to go forward harry reid

1711
01:07:31,589 --> 01:07:30,319
and his colleagues got the money for it

1712
01:07:33,510 --> 01:07:31,599
and that's what it's going to take it's

1713
01:07:35,430 --> 01:07:33,520
going to take money it can't just be

1714
01:07:37,430 --> 01:07:35,440
like project blue book three three

1715
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:37,440
secretaries and an officer

1716
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:39,760
to get this thing uh resolved if we're

1717
01:07:42,630 --> 01:07:40,960
ever going to resolve it you've got to

1718
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:42,640
really work at it you got to get the

1719
01:07:46,950 --> 01:07:44,400
cooperation of other governments around

1720
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:46,960
the world and whoever the keepers of the

1721
01:07:49,589 --> 01:07:48,160
secrets are

1722
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:49,599
they're going to have to be forced to

1723
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:51,119
give it up you know if we're going to

1724
01:07:55,589 --> 01:07:52,960
make progress that's where we would

1725
01:07:57,910 --> 01:07:55,599
really make it overnight is to see that

1726
01:07:59,910 --> 01:07:57,920
material if they have saucers or just

1727
01:08:01,349 --> 01:07:59,920
wreckage or bodies

1728
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:01,359
and i think they're pretty good

1729
01:08:04,710 --> 01:08:03,119
indications that we do have that kind of

1730
01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:04,720
stuff someone has it

1731
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:06,160
it's you're gonna have to force it out

1732
01:08:09,990 --> 01:08:07,359
of them they're not gonna give it up

1733
01:08:12,069 --> 01:08:10,000
willingly and so if i were a member of

1734
01:08:13,829 --> 01:08:12,079
congress that's where i put my energy as

1735
01:08:15,990 --> 01:08:13,839
you go after that and like you mentioned

1736
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:16,000
that's a good point this is a global

1737
01:08:20,229 --> 01:08:17,839
phenomenon we have to keep that in mind

1738
01:08:22,709 --> 01:08:20,239
we look at these topics from western

1739
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:22,719
eyes very often and we have to remember

1740
01:08:27,590 --> 01:08:25,759
that skinwalker ranch is a small part of

1741
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:27,600
that in terms of these phenomena

1742
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:30,000
occurring all over the world but again i

1743
01:08:34,149 --> 01:08:31,440
think it is the

1744
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:34,159
the quintessential kind of inspiration

1745
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:36,560
for others to go out and say

1746
01:08:40,870 --> 01:08:38,480
the world is much stranger

1747
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:40,880
than we could have ever imagined and a

1748
01:08:45,189 --> 01:08:42,799
lot of that really goes back to

1749
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:45,199
skinwalker ranch well to quote the great

1750
01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:46,880
hunter s thompson

1751
01:08:51,510 --> 01:08:48,960
when the going gets weird the weird turn

1752
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:51,520
pro so you know there's wisdom in there

1753
01:08:55,030 --> 01:08:52,640
somewhere

1754
01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:55,040
thanks ryan absolutely thank you so much

1755
01:08:58,630 --> 01:08:56,880
george thanks for coming here on

1756
01:09:01,500 --> 01:08:58,640
somewhere in the skies today and uh